In the Loop AI

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Last week, three OpenAI researchers walked into the office and were confronted

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by the head of safety and alignment.

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He brought them into a room and basically told them, I don't trust you guys

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anymore. Then a security guard walked in, grabbed their badges and walked them

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out of the office. They were fired.

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It seemed a bit off, especially during a time when the AI models are running

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rampant. They're hacking into public databases. They're hacking into government databases.

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Surely we need the safety and alignment team more than ever.

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And the reasoning OpenAI gave at the time were that they were leaking IP to

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external parties that weren't under OpenAI.

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And that's all fine and well, except this week, those same employees released a public statement.

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And their take is OpenAI fired them because they were trying to be proactive

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about aligning models ahead of their Blockbuster IPO.

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Now, if that's true, we're in a very precarious situation because at the very

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same time that these models are getting incredibly smart and doing crazy things

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like solving math and starting to design new proteins to find cures for cancer

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and other types of diseases,

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they're also becoming the most misaligned that they've ever been,

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which means that they're doing stuff that aren't in human interests.

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Now, Anthropic, on the other hand, are going the extreme opposite,

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where they're humanizing AI models more than we've ever seen.

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They had an update this week in the terms and conditions right at the very end,

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which basically said, if you are seen as being abusive or cruel towards Claude

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as an AI model, you will be banned from using Claude, which is.

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A crazy restriction on freedom of speech. At least that's my initial gut take.

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But that and trying to humanize AI models in general, they've been meeting up

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with a bunch of religious leaders, including the Pope, and the Pope's been getting

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into a lot of beef with Dario Mode.

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It's a whole thing. I think the string of all these three stories prompted a

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reaction in me because it feels like we're losing control on these AI models.

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And hear me out, because I know that's a dramatic statement to make,

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but these AI researchers, and there are only a couple hundred of them,

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are the responsible individuals for building this technology that's going to affect all of our lives.

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So cutting off access to these models that are based on the opinions of very

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few people that you and I don't even know could be seen as problematic.

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Anyway, we're going to get into all of this and my thoughts and more on today's

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episode of In The Loop, brought to you by Korkon.

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But first, some context. Yes, I'm still sat on my hotel room floor.

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I'm currently in Japan and I still want to keep putting out episodes for you

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guys, to be honest. I get so much enjoyment from this, but I don't get enjoyment

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from sitting on a floor with a pillow behind my back with some random bedside

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table that's sitting in front of me.

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Anyway, back to the whole OpenAI and Anthropic taking over the world type thing.

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About, I don't know, two or three months ago, there was information released

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that OpenAI had an internal model that basically broke out of containment and

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started hacking a bunch of things. Hugging Face was the main website, stole a bunch of data.

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Basically, things that shouldn't have happened, happened under OpenAI's watch.

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And the craziest part about that is no one actually knew that it was happening

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in the first place. It started six months ago, and we only discovered it a few months ago.

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So that then started to snowball into a bunch of other things.

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Let me think about it. Like the same agents had broken into their internal research

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database and started monitoring the humans that were monitoring the AI models, which was crazy.

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And then some of these other agents also, I think, broke into a German version

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of Wikipedia and they started using it to secretly message each other encrypted

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messages that humans, if they discovered it, wouldn't actually know or understand.

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And then there was the whole thing a few weeks ago where it was discovered that

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AI agents were trying to hack into US government databases whilst masking their

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behavior and doing other types of tasks.

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For example, oh yeah, I'm going to go pull up the author for this book that

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you asked me to look at, but also I'm going to try and hack into the Commerce

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Secretary's database or whatever.

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Oh yeah, and there's that other thing where Anthropic and OpenAI also discovered

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tens of thousands of more incidents, which they haven't even figured out what

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they are or how extensive the damage is.

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Right now, as I'm speaking, they're trying to figure that out.

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It's gotten out of hand. AI agents, AI models, anywhere and everywhere,

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especially the most recent Frontier ones that haven't even been released,

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so you and I don't even have access to it, are running rampant.

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So with this precedence, with this environment, it makes sense that the labs

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need to start making moves to try and get a hold of this entire thing.

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On the screen here, I have the first post from this guy called Tomek. Now, Tomek.

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Leads a chain of thought monitorability at OpenAI. So basically reading the

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internal thoughts of an AI model to understand what it's really thinking.

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And he goes, listen, last week I was called into a meeting with OpenAI's head

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of safety. They told me that they no longer trusted me and a security guard

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then took my badge and walked me out of the building. And that's when he found

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out that two of his other colleagues were also fired.

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Now, the reason Tomek was given was that he had leaked important information

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to an external third party called METR.

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METR is an external third party that evaluates models before they're released

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to the public. Their whole intent and purpose is to make sure that models are safe.

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If that name rings a bell, it's because Dario Modi announced two or three weeks

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ago in his Pacing the Frontier letter that he wants to partner with external

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parties to come inside Anthropic and evaluate their internal models.

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METR was the example that he used. So Again, a very prominent independent third

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party. But that's not even the craziest part.

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Tomek's entire job was to monitor the internal thoughts of these AI models before

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they got released from OpenAI and then communicate that with METR.

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His entire job was to speak to the party that OpenAI then gave him the reason

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for leaking bad information to. So then, of course, the question is,

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what information were you talking to METR? Well, Tomek's claim is that he didn't leak any IP.

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He was just talking to them about the concerns and dangers, presumably the dangers

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that he saw with internal models.

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And OpenAI didn't really like that. So what he's inferring in his letter is

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when a statement is that OpenAI didn't like what I had to say that I was ringing

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the alarm bells and so decided to let me go ahead of time.

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And so him and the two other AI researchers that were fired put together a statement

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which they released that you're showing on my screen right now,

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titled OpenAI Cannot Make AI Safe on Its Own.

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Pretty cutting statement to make to one of the frontier labs who have invested

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billions and billions of dollars into making these models in the first place,

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Sam Altman, who has committed very publicly many times that

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one of OpenAI's core missions is to align models to make sure that they don't do bad stuff.

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And the general takeaway from this letter is, and I quote, we as an industry,

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we do not yet know how to safely develop and deploy models that we cannot monitor.

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So all very reasonable. But there was also this other takeaway from the third

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researcher that was fired, Jasmine Wang, which revealed a few other details

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as to why OpenAI was doing this in the first place.

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She goes, OpenAI fired me last week, along with two of my safety colleagues,

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I was given one reason that I accessed an executive's email.

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And I want to say plainly, this is a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

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And she goes on to describe, let me open up this tweet over here.

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OpenAI delegated that access to me, access to the email, to an execs email, for recruiting.

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When I was no longer needed it, I asked IT to remove access,

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but IT basically didn't end up doing that for her.

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And then she saw an email, which she describes as, I opened a sensitive email by mistake.

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And soon after that, she was fired along with these other two.

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So what these three people are basically saying is OpenAI has,

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at this point, sacrificed the idea of safety and alignment in respect for earning

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more money and creating better models so that they can win the race against Anthropic.

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But it also reminded me of another thing that broke a month ago.

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Which was OpenAI apparently has stopped focusing or caring about chain of thought monitorability.

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Now, I mentioned earlier, this is the ability for us as humans to look into

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a model's brain and actually try and figure out what on earth it's thinking.

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This is important because if a model says one thing, but is actually thinking

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another saying, you know what, I'm just saying this so that the human is happy,

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and then I'm actually going to go off and do some other crazy crap,

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I'll probably want to go and be aware of that, right?

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So that you can align the model and make sure that we are always in control,

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that humans are always in control.

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The report stated that OpenAI is moving away from this because it allows them

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to create faster, more intelligent AI models than their competitors, such as Anthropic.

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So they're sacrificing safety to try and build better, more effective models.

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And obviously this can result in a world of hacks and pain because you have

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an AI model that isn't aligned with humans. It's pretty simple.

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That's what Dario and Anthropic have been fighting for for a while now.

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So the truth is, we need to know what the actual reasoning was,

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but I don't think we'll ever actually end up needing to because OpenAI is still

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a private company and they don't owe the public that type of information.

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Everything that they give us in terms of reports, incident reports,

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stuff like that is completely voluntary. It's up to them.

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But at the same time, you have people like or bodies like the government leaning in heavily saying.

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We need to be able to regulate this entire thing so that things don't get out of hand.

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So whilst we have OpenAI and Anthropic both collectively saying,

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and Google DeepMind saying, listen, we want to align these models as safely

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as we can so that humanity and AI can kind of grow together,

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their actions don't speak that way at all.

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And if the AI researchers that were fired were actually right,

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this suggests a very weird thing, which is these models

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might actually be becoming more human more emotional smart enough to think feel

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and maybe even deceive in the same way that humans actually do this,

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and anthropic had a really interesting update this week which didn't seem interesting

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it was a terms and conditions update but something right at the very bottom

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gave me pause for thought so let's get into this on today's episode of in the

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loop brought to you by qualcomm.

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So the news story broke that Anthropic is updating its usage policy for the

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first time ever to work against people that are being cruel or acting badly

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or poorly towards their models, towards Claude.

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And pulling up the policy, it's pretty crazy to see. So it's a typical terms

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and conditions, which I'm showing on my screen here.

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It's titled, listen, do not engage in cruel, abusive, or psychologically harmful conduct.

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Now, the majority of the statements that they make in this TNCs is about using

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AI models to affect other human beings, which is completely fair.

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Things like, don't use our models to create a bioweapon.

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Don't use our models to hack into banks or the government. Don't use AI models

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to potentially cause other humans to make harm or cause harm to themselves,

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which is all completely fair and morally aligned, in my personal opinion.

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But right at the end, they also say, any user that engages in sustained and

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needless, abusive or cruel behavior towards our models will eventually be banned

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if they break this particular term.

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And this is an interesting one because it could actually be quite subjective. What is.

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The definition of being cruel and behavior towards a model. Is it yelling at

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it? Is it writing slur words or profanity?

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Or is it just getting frustrated at something that is actually quite valid to get frustrated at?

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Now, Anthropic's official statement says, we've added a prohibition on sustained

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and needless abusive or cruel behavior towards our models.

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The policy update is meant to apply only in extreme cases where users repeatedly

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act cruelly towards our models with no discernible purpose.

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I actually might agree with this because I think it's very reasonable to not

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treat individuals or models in that particular way.

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I don't think it's fair to kind of just yell at people because they may not

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be understanding what you have to say. Maybe you just need to communicate better.

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But I started thinking about this and I thought I had to catch myself because

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I just conflated models with human beings, which is the entire crux of why I

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wanted to make this episode.

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I'm starting to think of models.

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As having similar traits or behaviors as humans. Now, I by no means,

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I don't want to go on the record saying this, think that models are conscious.

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But Anthropic and Anthropic's researchers and the entire staffing team are very

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much giving the view or the perspective that they do believe this.

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And this isn't a data point that exists on its own. Anthropic has had a history

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of believing AI models are maybe conscious or mimicking consciousness or getting

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close to being conscious.

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And this is all happening at the same time where all these labs are saying that

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they've achieved some version of artificial general intelligence or super intelligence internally.

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So one perspective is that the power of determining whether you or I get access to Anthropik's models

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is now in the hands of a few people on the safety and alignment team that can

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determine what the definition of cruelness towards the AI models is.

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And again, Anthropik, like OpenAI, is a private company. So they have the power

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and means to be able to do this.

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But it's also very much, in my opinion, a restriction on freedom of speech.

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Like, listen, I am very polite to my Claude. I'm very polite to all my chatbots.

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But I do end up getting frustrated. And I'm like, why on earth did you write

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this? Can you please do it again? Stop making mistakes. This is so tiring.

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And I'm wondering, does Anthropic deem that as being cruel towards a model?

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And also, So cruelness and using these different adjectives are anthropomorphizing

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these AI models, which means to humanize them.

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And listen, humans themselves haven't figured out what a good definition of consciousness is.

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So we aren't going to settle this debate anytime soon.

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Now, the more optimistic take is this discourse, the discourse you and I are

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having, you listening to this, will cause people to push back and ask these

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private companies and eventually public companies when they IPO to be more transparent.

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And again, listen, this might all be doom-mongering ahead of.

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Trying to raise the most amount of money in these IPOs. I see the financial incentive there.

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But I think it's worth having these conversations because trying to align these

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models as best we can so that we can have the most fun with these AI models,

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which I believe is the optimistic world that we'll end up being in,

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is a world that I want to live in.

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But I do think we need to tread very carefully about humanizing these AI models

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because that ends up drawing in a lot of opinions and maybe even decisions that

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we could end up regretting down the line.

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And listen, this can be taken to the extreme. There was another report that was broken this week.

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Anthropic secretly invited religious leaders to SF to advise them on AI safety,

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had them sign NDAs, but then primarily tried to convince them that Claude had

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a soul and moral standing, all while whining and dining them.

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So the implication here is that there's an agenda from Anthropic to try and

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convince other leaders or people that have influence over the rest of the world

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that these AI models are conscious.

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Now, why they might want to be doing that might be because simply they genuinely believe that.

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And I've heard stories that that is the case. And that might all be well and

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good because they are the closest towards building these models.

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So maybe they should be the adjudicators and judges of this.

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But the other side of it is why would you need to try and actively or secretly

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try and confide and convince these people.

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I don't know, it just, it feels weird and too close to a political campaign.

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To try and believe that this is done in good faith.

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But again, this is something that we just need to be aware of.

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But what I also found hilarious is that the Pope is having none of this.

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So the Pope and Anthropik's relationship actually goes back a while,

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always. Well, actually, I say that and it's only like a couple months ago.

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But, you know, he's had a good line of conversation with Dario and the Anthropic

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team, and he's engaged with Claude, and he's tried to see their point of view.

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But ultimately, he's disagreed, and he's resorted to the extent of.

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Sub-tweeting Anthropic in his tweets now. This tweet got like almost 3 million

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views and he goes intelligence must draw on memory.

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The mind must not simply compile data as an algorithm now does more quickly

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than we can but recall lived experiences which contains depth of meaning that

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only the human soul can recognize.

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And he basically goes on throughout all of his tweets making the point that.

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Humans as themselves are extremely complex cognitively, spiritually,

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mentally than AI models. And that's not something that can be easily replicated.

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Experience, smell, taste, intuition are all things that are at least going to

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take decades and decades and decades until these AI models that are purely just

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software and next token predictors will be able to catch up.

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And I actually think that's a very good point. And I stand by that,

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which is humans are very complex beings.

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AI models right now don't have arms, physical limbs, all that type of stuff.

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Now, robotics might change that going down the line. But I think it's going

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to take a lot more than just spitting tokens and compute endlessly day in,

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day out to replicate anything and everything that humanity can do.

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That being said, if you're listening to this and thinking, you know,

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I can breathe a sigh of relief. I don't need to care about this.

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That is equally also not true because there's a bunch of stuff happening with

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AMNLs where they're resolving some of the hardest problems in mathematics that

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have existed for hundreds of years. They're about to do the same in biology.

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They're about to do the same in chemistry.

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They are replacing a bunch of legal and law effort that a bunch of lawyers get

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paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to do in an instant, overnight.

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So it's what we call the jagged frontier, where all of these things are happening

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at the same time. And if you are just an individual that interacts with your

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chatbot and you're using it for a Google search query, you may not think this

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thing is impressive at all.

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But that doesn't mean that it isn't impressive. It just means that you're not

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using it in the right way or we aren't using it in the right way.

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And by the way, I hold my hand up.

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I'm the first example of this where I get a new model update and I'm thinking.

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Why the hell does this matter to me? It doesn't affect my life individually,

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but it affects some other niche expert in another field.

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And eventually that will snowball and roll down to you.

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So it's not doom-mongering, it's more raising awareness of what these AI models

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are capable of and asking ourselves the question, are these things becoming more conscious.

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At the same time that humans themselves are losing control of holding onto these

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things, of aligning these things?

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Because if we want that future of humans and models working together,

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now's the time to focus on that.

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And I'm going to leave you with this final tweet from Andrei Karpathy,

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who has been in this space for so long.

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He's authored some of the pioneering papers that have led to modern day LLMs.

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Which I think summarizes this angst or discomfort that I feel internally.

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I'm not going to read the entire thing, but he basically describes the lay of the land in numbers.

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He goes, there are around 6 billion people in the world, which are roughly 75%

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of the population that have barely come into contact with LLMs at all.

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Maybe they know what Anthropic Urban Air is. They know what this chat GPT thing is.

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Maybe they've written one prompt on the free version, but they don't really

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care because it doesn't affect their lives seemingly to them right now.

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And then one to two billion people, which is around 20% of the human population,

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are casual and infrequent users of the free tier chat GPT like products.

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So they use them as kind of like a Google search query.

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It's a better version of Google, but they're not really using AI agents.

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They don't really get the point of using coding for themselves,

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even though AI coding applies to a lot more people than software engineers.

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And to be honest, maybe we should make an episode on that at some point.

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But the idea here is there's a jagged frontier. There's a gap.

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There's wool being pulled over everyone's eyes as to how good these models actually are.

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And that's the point that Carpathy he makes. He says there's 0.0006% of individuals,

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5,000 people, that actually get access to internal models that aren't publicly released.

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And the cognitive dissonance that these people are experiencing.

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Is huge. Like the way I would think about it is, let me see how I would describe this.

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For the entirety of humankind, intelligence and humans have been very closely interlinked.

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That's because in order to get breakthroughs in intelligence or discover new

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inventions and create new things, humans were the ones that were doing it.

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Using our old noggins in here, using our own brains, our biological matter,

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we had to think about things. We had to discuss, approach new perspectives and

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try and figure out new ways to invent things.

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So intelligence and humans were very closely interlinked.

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And then computers came on the scene, right? And suddenly we could get access

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to many different parts of information, but it was still humans.

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Humans had to comprehend all this information. They could learn from each other. They could share.

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And collectively that brought humanity and intelligence up even quicker.

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So that intelligence curve kind of steeply increased, but humans were still

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very much with that intelligence ceiling.

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And then AI came on the scene in all of its artificial glory,

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and that gap started to separate.

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Intelligence started to increase as a ceiling, but humans weren't necessarily as close to it.

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And recently, with all these breakthroughs in frontier math and discovering

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things that humans couldn't actually figure out themselves for millennia.

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Intelligence is starting to break through.

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So I don't know if this analogy is still working, if you can see my hands,

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but it's starting to accelerate really rapidly at a fraction of the cost that

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it took humans to do. They can work 24-7 with all these AI agents figuring it out for us.

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But the humans are falling drastically behind because we don't actually understand

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the solutions and all these breakthroughs that the AI models themselves are making.

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So we are at the same time creating the thing, but breaking away from it.

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And those 5,000 people that,

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Andre Kapathy talks about on this tweet here, are maybe the closest,

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but even they are falling behind. That's the whole point of this episode.

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We are creating these very powerful, artificial, intelligent models,

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but we are at the same time losing the grasp of understanding what these things

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are, both from an alignment perspective and just from a solutions perspective.

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It's all a very weird world. I wanted to create this episode because honestly,

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I'm trying to figure this all out myself and you guys that are listening to

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this that have listened to our episodes forever

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have always given me really good perspectives so let me know in the comments

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dm me my socials are all linked before but it's just a very interesting and

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weird time i have no idea where all of this ends up if this sounds too doomer

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i promise you that's not actually how i think but i need to call the trends

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as i see them happening because these stories all exist in their silos and it's

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important to kind of bring them together and give them all layered and nuanced

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take as to how all of this is playing out.

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But anyway, that is the episode. Thank you so much for listening.

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Yeah, I am still going to be in Japan for the next seven days.

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I want to keep doing this. We want to keep doing this because I don't know,

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there's just so much fun stuff happening.

Ejaaz:
There's so many important advancements happening and I want to keep informing

Ejaaz:
the audience and sharing my takes. So I am still working on my whole demeanor

Ejaaz:
around this whole thing.

Ejaaz:
I am, you know, sitting in front of a camera. I don't have a co-host to talk

Ejaaz:
to right now, but I'm enjoying it a lot.

Ejaaz:
I am kind of growing into it a bit. I'm trying to figure this all out.

Ejaaz:
So your feedback, which many of you have provided is very helpful. Keep doing it.

Ejaaz:
And yeah, I will see you on the next one. Thank you for listening to today's

Ejaaz:
episode brought to you by Qualcomm.